tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3659330560006301380.post9212034234271474725..comments2023-11-05T04:28:41.397-08:00Comments on Strategic Sorcery: Hopefully the Last Goetia related post I feel compelled to make for quite some timeJason Miller,http://www.blogger.com/profile/03034226672257024583noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3659330560006301380.post-29582439157314190162021-10-22T15:54:06.199-07:002021-10-22T15:54:06.199-07:00Oi vocês mulheres eu vou contar o que aconteceu co...Oi vocês mulheres eu vou contar o que aconteceu comigo o que eu sonhava para casar construir uma família mas sempre confiei nas amizades fazer a festinha chamar as amigas para minha casa tudo que eu fazia na minha casa eu chamava minhas amigas e a minha mãe falava para mim você toma cuidado que uma das suas amigas ainda vai acabar com seu casamento e eu ficava brava nervosa e cheguei até ficar sem falar com a minha mãe confiava demais mas amizade delas uma pessoa chegou em mim e falou para mim assim eu vi o teu marido com uma das suas amigas falou até o nome dela no dia seguinte ela chegou lá em casa e eu falei teve uma pessoa que disse que viu você com meu marido aos beijos ela jurou ela chorou Ela falou para mim,para mim teu marido é mulher igual eu e eu confiei quando eu descobri ele tinha montado uma casa para ela montar uma loja e dado um carro para ela aí todo mundo Deixa ele para lá falei não eu vou reconstruir meu casamento não vou dar esse gosto para ela e vou passar o contato dessa pessoa que me ajudou eu estou compartilhando com aquela que passou ou tá passando o que eu passei por que essa pessoa me ajudou eu reconstruir meu casamento com ele eu vou passar o contato dela quem quiser procurar ela (62)9 9559-0805Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12118357612649022065noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3659330560006301380.post-38483787778835714862010-03-23T20:34:02.084-07:002010-03-23T20:34:02.084-07:00A aside,but:
Jason, could you share more about Bun...A aside,but:<br />Jason, could you share more about Bune as Ferry-guy of sould in Turkish mythology? <br />Turkic, pre-Islamic stuff, or Turkey really greater-Greece stuff ;-)leo9https://www.blogger.com/profile/10261638709048583548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3659330560006301380.post-28937979978111118372010-03-20T18:37:29.847-07:002010-03-20T18:37:29.847-07:00I certainly understood that his statement was made...I certainly understood that his statement was made in jest. I certainly don't want to try and enter this discussion and try and pass myself as any expert of sorts. I have certainly worked with the spirits including an spirit pot operation inspired by FO's work with Bune. But I will say that it could be more my personal aesthetic that insist on considering the spirits as demons. But is has worked for me thus far and has not hampered my workings. Of course if something does blow up in my face Iam more inclined to blame myself than the spirit because that's just my nature. <br /><br />I think Jason made a good point about assuming that if someone comes up with a different conclusion or has a varying experience that they are somehow either not doing the work or approaching it incorrectly. One of the most interesting things about the Goetic tradition is wide variety of experiences and methods that have been developed. It's what keeps the tradition a living one and not just a curious antiquity. A demonolater may have a different experience than a Grimoire Verum purist, and that's find as long as they are doing the work and getting the results they seek. That's how I view it.<br /><br />All in all I have learned a lot from following this conversation through the different blogs, and have some things to ponder in regards to my own practice. So much thanks to Jason, and RO for your insights.Brother Ashhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11824587310869689071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3659330560006301380.post-56932431384745518852010-03-19T11:33:49.370-07:002010-03-19T11:33:49.370-07:00Lets take a look at someone who disagrees with bot...Lets take a look at someone who disagrees with both of us as to the nature of the Goetia; Lon DuQuette.<br /><br />I completely disagree with his conclusions but I am absolutely 100% positive that he has done the work and has good reasons for thinking the way he does. <br /><br />Results and interpretation of teh results are two different things.Jason Miller,https://www.blogger.com/profile/03034226672257024583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3659330560006301380.post-82643723564233685752010-03-19T11:30:03.969-07:002010-03-19T11:30:03.969-07:00The joke in your post was noted, but the comment b...The joke in your post was noted, but the comment by AD made me wonder if more than one person was thinking that way. Just wanted to nail that coffin shut.<br /><br />Maybe I do need to adjust my thinking. I guess I assume because I've done some work and reached some conclusions that fit my experiences, everyone who does any Work will reach the same conclusions.Rufus Opushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10806987441760167537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3659330560006301380.post-86148532989051213322010-03-19T10:32:17.532-07:002010-03-19T10:32:17.532-07:00First thing is first, the implication that you wer...First thing is first, the implication that you were defending demons because you are enthralled by them was a joke which should have been clear from the smiley face that appeared right after that. No offence was meant.<br /><br />It should also have been clear on the point that I ended my post with: I know that I am not going to change Frater R.O.'s mind with this. He has his view, and has the experience to back it up. I respect him even when I disagree with him because he does the work and doesnt whine about the consequences.<br /><br />That said, you seem to imply that anyone that has come to different conclusions about the nature of the spirits is not doing the work. It is true that I have not made the Grimoires a focus of my magic in he way that you have, but I have had plenty of experiences with them. I have also had experiences with other systems. Almost all other systems have groups of spirits that are considered a bit dangerous but potentially fruitful to work with. Tibetan Dharamapalas work this way. Vodoun Petro spirits work this way. It is my experience that Goetia works this way - which, is why I like them.Jason Miller,https://www.blogger.com/profile/03034226672257024583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3659330560006301380.post-66400887196504629572010-03-19T08:48:22.536-07:002010-03-19T08:48:22.536-07:00Yes, the grims are unreliable in many ways. They t...Yes, the grims are unreliable in many ways. They take lists of spirits and put them into their own approach to conjuring them. They can be trusted to be no more than what they are: basic primers in the art of conjuring spirits. They provide useful tech, but their theology, doxology, and cosmology is mostly crap.<br /><br />I disagree that you get a demon because you use the technique from a grim that paints the spirits as demons. You get a spirit. Your subjective experience of the spirit will be colored by your expectation that it's a demon. <br /><br />As for the Christian Mystics... Dude... It's <i>occult</i>. Assuming the grims were even written by Christian Mystics, and not some opportunistic occult publisher trying to make a fast florin, you've got to figure they had to hide the truth in plain sight. Look at Weier's introduction to the Pseudomonarchia Daemonorum, it's an anti-Catholic rant. Hell, look at the title, "The False-Monarchy of Demons." Do you think an occult scholar versed in middle platonic philosophy of Plutarch's Parallel Lives, Iamblichus' On the Mysteries, and the Hermetic texts of Constantinople that were flooding Europe at the time would have really believed the hierarchy of terrestrial spirits had anything to do with a Christian war in heaven? <br /><br />The grims were written mostly in the 15th and 16th centuries. The Ottoman Turks had sacked Constantinople, and the people who fled to Europe to escape the Turks brought with them an influx of occult texts. The Europeans ate it up. Cosmo Medici sponsored the translation of some of the work, and based on this and the ideals of the emerging Enlightenment, the West was hit with a ton of good stuff about Hermetic magic. But it was alchemical or astrological, mostly, and there were a few things here and there that were like receipt books, what we call Greek Magical Papyri today. But they were incomplete. There were no instructions for working magic.<br /><br />A few people realized there was a passion for occult stuff that made sense and threw together the grimoires to make cash. The grims are not carefully researched reports on historic practices of magic. They're thrown together lists of spirits from the plethora of lists of spirits pouring into Europe, sprinkled with simplified Christian Cabala, and reflective of the local Church Authority's spin on the doctrine of the day. In Protestant areas, the grims reflect Calvinist ideas, in Catholic areas, they're structured along priestly lines. In more secular places, they could get away with writing the grimoires like St. Cyprian, Black Pullet, Liber Juratus, or the Red Dragon. <br /><br />The source material they were pillaging did, however, mention spirits using terms like Angeloi and Daimon, and as you said, the meaning of these words was already established. They took their contemporary understanding of the words Angel and Demon, and applied it to the lists of spirits. So a Goetic magician's notes that list his "Daimons" of the Terrestrial realm becomes a list of infernal demons in a 15th century grimoire. <br /><br />Seriously, I've spent a lot of time researching the history, the culture, the societal mood of the times the grimoires were written. I've gone in depth into the Hermetic, Neoplatonic, Platonist, and Persian sources of the grimoires. I've tracked their emergence from the 1st century through the 15th and 16th centuries, and they are not lists of angels of demons. <br /><br />You've been duped, man. And now every time something goes wrong with the spirits of the Goetia, you'll think, well, you get demonic results from demonic conjurations after all, heheheh, but that canned answer doesn't fix anything, doesn't lead to learning how to do the magic right.<br /><br />And the implication that I'm defending demons because I'm enthralled by them instead of because I've done the research and the magic to have an informed understanding of what they are and how they work is more than a little offensive.Rufus Opushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10806987441760167537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3659330560006301380.post-15336952110305541312010-03-18T20:17:41.463-07:002010-03-18T20:17:41.463-07:00The Grimoires are unreliable as to the nature of t...The Grimoires are unreliable as to the nature of the spirits but should be trusted in other ways?<br /><br />I am not saying don't work them, I am just saying have a realistic expectation of what you are working with. I know the master of one occult lodge who was so caught up in the idea of Goetia being parts of the brain that he recomended Goetic Evocation to a mentally ill person! No one here is suggesting that they arent real spirits (unless Lon is lurking about) but I do think that when approached through a grimoire that treats them as demons, you essentially get a Demon. <br /><br />If the Grimoires are unreliable, than work with something older or newer. <br /><br />In a way, and this is ironic, I think you are being dismissive of the Christian Magicians that put together the Grimoires. Why does their opinion of what makes a Demon vs an Angel count less than the opinion of a Greek a Thousand years earlier? <br /><br />Also the origins of the terms Angel (messenger) and Daimon (spirit) had differnt meaning originally, but were well established in Christian Theology by the time the Grimoires were written.Jason Miller,https://www.blogger.com/profile/03034226672257024583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3659330560006301380.post-2523201899822391642010-03-18T15:11:00.795-07:002010-03-18T15:11:00.795-07:00Layo, no deal is being fulfilled by defending the ...Layo, no deal is being fulfilled by defending the spirits. I just can't stand people shitting on an entire system because they don't understand it.<br /><br />AD, I like the hot and cold metaphors, but the spirits of the Lemegeton's Goetia are as likely to be cool as hot. You can't lump them all under one label. Asmoday can be hot in some things, cool in others. They're primarily <i> teaching</i> spirits, not materialists. Their main realm of influence is the Mental realm, Jason's Level 2 of the 3-level cosmology of existence he used in Sorcerer's Secrets.<br /><br />People may be motivated to use the spirits based on their classification, as you said, but that doesn't mean they're using them right. Sammael of Mars is a "hot" spirit, as is Cassiel, in that their effects are fast to manifest, yet Bael and Asmoday have "cooler" methods of manifestation than these Archangels.<br /><br />I just don't want to see people missing the potential of the spirits because the way the spirits really operate falls outside a person's predetermined expectations.Rufus Opushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10806987441760167537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3659330560006301380.post-22760631099049471582010-03-18T09:09:41.721-07:002010-03-18T09:09:41.721-07:00I'll try n ot to post another Goetia post for ...I'll try n ot to post another Goetia post for a while, but man, this is tempting.<br /><br />The Qlippoth thing was a response to a comment by Jack Faust. Just a joke.<br /><br />"Demons" and "Angels" is a big issue for me. They're labels applied to spirits, and the idea is that because the labels are differen,t one set is "safe and cool" and the other is "dangerous and hot."<br /><br />This is false.<br /><br />Extensive work with the Lesser Key spirits over the last couple of years has left me with an understanding of them that equals that of my experience with so-called angels. Despite all the hype, there's no such thing as "angels" and "demons." There's only "spirits." <br /><br />The grimoires are notoriously unreliable when it comes to being an authoritative source on the nature of the spirits presented. Uriel and Cassiel can be angels or demons depending on which grimoire you consult. Ashtoroth comes across as an Angel in the Testament of Solomon and a Demon in the Lesser Key. They were written a millenium and a half apart, so it stands to reason that different maicians had different experiences, and some posted their results as negative and others as positive.<br /><br />The thing is, of the many people that read grimoires, few actually do the rites. I doubt that's changed much in the last couple of thousand years.<br /><br />Of the few that do the rites, there's a wide range of results, and then there's a few hundred more interpretations. More people interpret my results than actually do the rites I do, for example.<br /><br />In the days that the source material for the grimoires were written, "Daimon" meant spirit, messenger, and so did "Angel." Putting a neat line that says, "Angels are safe and cool while demons are unsafe and hot" is not accurate at all.Rufus Opushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10806987441760167537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3659330560006301380.post-5913519332011759292010-03-17T23:12:26.621-07:002010-03-17T23:12:26.621-07:00I have had a chance to get up to speed on this Goe...I have had a chance to get up to speed on this Goetic discussion that has been going on and it has been fascinating. <br /><br />It didn't seem as if RO's rant on the Qlippoth was related to the Goetic discussion. Although I am actually surprised that the "Shells" had not come up in the debate earlier. In the experiences that I have had working with the demonic spirits I have never felt so overwhelmed as the time I did an invocation of Asmodeus in his aspect as ruler of Golochab. It's the only time that an invocation has felt more like a possession to me. <br /><br />Perhaps the context in which the demon is summoned is also a factor in not only the intensity but the resulting fallout o an operation. I will have to agree with you on not understanding the urge to defend the demons as not being demonic in nature. Granted most modern magicians do not hold conventional views on good and evil which is completely understandable, however one turns to the demonic spirits for a reason. If there were little distinction between them and the Angelic beings one would not chose to work with demons if the same results could be achieved with cooler safer spirits. <br /><br />One turns to the demons because they act fast due to their fiery or infernal nature. They are bold, and seem to only be bound the parameters set by the karcist and the forces he invokes during his operation. One can chose not to view these beings as "evil" but they are certainly other in nature and should be respected and approached as such IMO.Brother Ashhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11824587310869689071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3659330560006301380.post-86494057403464770132010-03-17T22:13:19.030-07:002010-03-17T22:13:19.030-07:00This could be Bune's theme song - Turkish Song...This could be Bune's theme song - Turkish Song of the Damned!<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHeapDSrYf4&feature=related<br /><br />At any rate, Bune doesn't like it when people defame his name, so RO may be fulfilling a deal by defending it.O. Jacksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12550385278550939178noreply@blogger.com