Kenaz finds them akin to Hot Spirits in Vodou. In this I agree. They are quick to work but volatile. I would not go so far as to say Corrosive, though some are. Asmodeus was when I worked with him and I would never do so again. Bune and Vassago are more chill. And indeed the book itself gives hints as to which ones are easy and which ones are a pain in the ass.
Frater R.O. who I normally agree with in many ways has pointed out that the main screw up with how he worked with them lately was on his end: not supplying a specific plan for them to operate within. Very true. He did however seem to say that there was not much difference between the spirits of the Goetia and the Archangels or Planetary Intelligences. This I totally disagree with. There is a Tutelary and uplifting role to the higher spirits that the Goetia just do not have. They can behave in unpredictable ways, but not usually in the same manner. When things go wrong with Angelic magic it is pretty easy to address and fix. When things go wrong with Goetia, they tend to take some of the worst possible forms - just like working with some of the HOT spirits of Vodou or even some of the Dregspa - wrathful spirits of Tibet,
Anyway, I respect everyones opinion. In a way, I wish I had left out the Bune thing on TSS, it was however the fulfillment of a contract with the spirit.
Jason
4 comments:
Actually, I'm glad the discussion started. I think it's been fruitful and respectful: while there are obvious points of disagreement between the participants, nobody has resorted to name-calling yet. And I have definitely learned some things from the various posts.
I agree that some of the Goetic entities are less nasty than others. I'm not sure if I just managed to call up some of the nastier ones. I've worked with Furcas, Cimmeries, Sitri, and Gamori: each of them was dangerous in its own way and each was a very definite individual personality. ISTR that Orobas is considered relatively mellow. But I also remember that Sitri came up as one of the most hypnotically beautiful beings I ever encountered. I remember thinking to myself "There's no way this is a demon. There's no reason for me to be in this circle. Oh, wait a minute..." So I'd be wary even of a purportedly good-natured Goetic spirit.
I may have an unfair anti-Goetic bias, but I do think that at the very least these entities should be approached with caution and respect. As you said, when things go wrong with the Goetia they tend to go spectacularly, horribly wrong. But I am also seeing that other magicians have been able to work with them profitably without having the working explode in their face.
Hey, J, I left the wrong impression. In terms of using the Goetia and the Archangels to achieve practical, physical results, such as the manifestation of riches, I think your experience is going to be just as "risky" no matter which class of spirit you choose. They have equal potential and probability to create undesired shit in your life as they manifest the desired results. An Archangel may not destroy something physical; the Work with Michael that made me suffer was in the realm of my job. I'm a tech writer/project manager, a job field that consists of a lot of mental fiction we pretend is true so that people can feel more confident that their business plans will succeed. It's totally within the realm of the Archangels, or at least a lot closer to their realm than the Goetia spirits'.
But Archangels are at the Idea-Level 1 end of your 3-level system, and the Lem's Goetia spirits are from the 2-3 layer. They're terrestrial, sub-lunar spirits in the "The Moon begins the Heavens" model. They aren't teachers of eternal truths.
The Archangels are long-term specialists, the Goetia spirits are short-term specialists.
I don't think we really disagree, I think I'm just focused on something else.
I just want to say thank you for sharing your posts about Goetia. I have read yours, Kenaz's, Frater RO's and others points and I have found them all very interesting, thought provoking and illuminating. I am currently engaging in seeking my HGA (month 3 nearly done woo!) and the insights of experienced practitioners is really beneficial. Thanks.
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